Come on Fiat...Abarth NOW!!!

[CaliberSRT4]

Here is a link to the Top Gear Fiat 500 review:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UpAFi9nIJVQ


The Fiat 500 he drives in the beginning is equipped with a sunroof. The Abarth Esseesse he drives for most of the episode has no sunroof.

[sketch]

Thanks for the link!  I think I'll just watch the entire episode when I get home ;)

[Fidgell]

Well, the wait for the Scorpion badge is killing me.... and now I spot the new Focus ST on the horizon about the same time. At the same anticipated price its going to be a tough one to decide. If FIAT shift this forward id say Abarth for sure, but sat next to each other in a heads up fight for my cash - I dont know anymore!!!

[Small Car Lover]

I've been watching the ST with interest as well.  A couple things come to mind that may be a factor.  It looks like the ST is going to be positioned as a fairly loaded sport touring car (ST) not a minimalist rally inspired RS kind of car.  Saying that, I suspect the ST will be priced a significant bump over a loaded Focus Titanium.  I'm speculating the ST is going to MSRP approaching $30k since a loaded Titanium approaches MSRP of $27k.

The big question will be the price of the Abarth.  Low to mid 20's or High 20's?

The other issue is they are really different classes of vehicles.  The Focus being Much larger and at least 500lbs heavier.  It will be interesting to see how many buyers cross shop between these two very different vehicles.

The upcoming Hyundai Veloster turbo will be a interesting vehicle positioned in between the 500 and the Focus ST in terms of size and weight.  That looks to be a 2600 lb car about the size of the 3rd generation Acura Integra.  The Civic Si will be getting the Acura TSX motor.  There are a number of interesting vehicles on the horizon.  The 500 seems to be in its own class in terms of size and weight however.  Interesting times...

[Fidgell]

Small Car Lover wrote

I've been watching the ST with interest as well.  A couple things come to mind that may be a factor.  It looks like the ST is going to be positioned as a fairly loaded sport touring car (ST) not a minimalist rally inspired RS kind of car.  Saying that, I suspect the ST will be priced a significant bump over a loaded Focus Titanium.  I'm speculating the ST is going to MSRP approaching $30k since a loaded Titanium approaches MSRP of $27k.

The big question will be the price of the Abarth.  Low to mid 20's or High 20's?

The other issue is they are really different classes of vehicles.  The Focus being Much larger and at least 500lbs heavier.  It will be interesting to see how many buyers cross shop between these two very different vehicles.

The upcoming Hyundai Veloster turbo will be a interesting vehicle positioned in between the 500 and the Focus ST in terms of size and weight.  That looks to be a 2600 lb car about the size of the 3rd generation Acura Integra.  The Civic Si will be getting the Acura TSX motor.  There are a number of interesting vehicles on the horizon.  The 500 seems to be in its own class in terms of size and weight however.  Interesting times...

I hear what you say, but with the fun/performance car segment not being so large in NA (Im from the UK moved to Canada 8yrs ago), the competition forces buyers to expand their selection. Direct competition for the Abarth over here is really limited to the Golf GTi, Mazdaspeed3 etc, but with the 500 in my opinion costing CAD30k so probably 26k US its going to meet head on with the Focus. Now, I love the Abarth and drove one recently on a UK trip (albeit the less powerful Euro version if rumours here are correct), but it was somewhat "basic". It was great fun, but felt cheap and unrefined. I have a thing for unconventional sports cars having most recently owned an E30 M3 and a Z3M Coupe (both VERY good cars but not too practical). I would NEVER have looked at a Ford until I saw the ST at the motorshow and actually felt embarrased for writing it off previously. Ive owned only 1 Ford in my life, an RS2000 (European car from the 70s - look it up truely fantastic in its day) and have never seen another Id like - unless they resurrect the Puma and put a decent motor in it! Id like an STI or EVO but its not happening so with CAD30k the budget I feel the ST and Abarth are favorites. I feel the Abarth will be put back, and when the ST comes there WILL be a line up so if it gets here on time that may swing me, and after trying my friends Focus RS500 (which scared the life outta me) I may want right in. The Velostar doesnt do it for me on any level so I cant find a third choice but maybe the Toyota coupe will be worth a look too. If the Abarth came out tomorrow i WOULD buy one then, but its only in the planning stage for early next year and then there will be so few I wouldnt get exactly what I wanted and I think at that price it may be a compromise too far. A Fiesta ST would be even better but wont happen so its down to who comes up with the car first and Im certain that Ford will be there at the post.... BUT if they both came out the same month??? Who knows, but test drives and careful consideration are not an option in a shoot out with the hard to find and massively sort after. Exciting times indeed, but my guess will see me sitting inthe ST for a couple of years before buying the Abarth Coupe in 2014 ! ! ! Until then the JCW Mini remains with me, and I HATE HATE HATE it......

[Small Car Lover]

All good points.  I understand your interest in a Fiesta ST.  I have owned a number of fords and have been happy with all of them.  When the Mazda2 came out I was really excited about the light weight platform.  I was chomping at the bit for a MS2.  Then news came out Mazda had no plans for such a vehicle and I was quite disappointed.  I don't happen to have any interest in the extensive infotainment packages integrated into so many vehicles today, and Ford seems to be a focusing quite a bit in this area.  With buying a new ford I feel I'd be paying for extensive entertainment/communications equipment I would rather not have and never use.  Simplicity is a major attraction for me to the 500.  Fiat has made the Blue and Me package quite inoffensive, and easy to ignore.  My dream car would be a Arial Atom with a weather tight driver compartment, a windshield wiper, heat and A/C.  A commuter that could be track day'ed.  

RS2000 and RS500, both great cars!  Lots of fun  

[sketch]

The Mini Cooper S is the only direct competitor to the Abarth, I think.  The rest may indeed be cross-shopped by some, but then again I cross-shopped a Prius with a GLI and an A3.  Realistically, they're in a different segment.

Considering the 500 Sport undercuts the $20,700 Mini Cooper by a few thousand, I'd expect the Abarth to undercut the $23,700 Cooper S similarly.  Maybe $21,500 isn't a bad estimate.

[CaliberSRT4]

I think you can get a Caterham with a roof.

My thoughts are similar to yours. My dream car would probably be a Caterham or Atom. Both the Focus ST and Fiat 500 Abarth do pique my interest. It would indeed to cool to see sport versions of Mazda2/Fiesta, but that probably won't happen. Although I did read some rumors about the Fiesta getting a new turbo engine, but that might be for fuel economy reasons and not offer much additional performance.

I also hold out hope for a rumored new SRT4. I would be happy if it offered more power and performance than Focus ST and Cruze SS for a similar or lower price.

[sketch]

Small Car Lover wrote

My dream car would be a Arial Atom with a weather tight driver compartment, a windshield wiper, heat and A/C.

If this ever happens, I will literally eat my own shoes.

[CaliberSRT4]

sketch wrote

Small Car Lover wrote

My dream car would be a Arial Atom with a weather tight driver compartment, a windshield wiper, heat and A/C.

If this ever happens, I will literally eat my own shoes.

One could argue that they are better without those luxuries, as they add weight. I find it funny how Caterham lists their options by how much weight they add.

"This one however has a windscreen, roof and even a heater, adding a whopping 18Kg -- Caterham list options for the Superlight by weight as well as price -- so I made up for it by packing light and skipping lunch"
http://www.pistonheads.com/roadtests/doc.asp?c=112&i=12839

[sketch]

Not only could one argue that, that's Ariel's entire raison d'être.

The reason Lotus gives you power windows on the Exige S is not that they're trying to give you luxury, it's that the components of a power window system are lighter than those of a hand-cranked window.  And that's Lotus.

Considering Ariel doesn't even give you bodywork for your £30,000 (or £150,000, if you want the V8), don't hold your breath.  It's a lot more than just a cockpit and a wiper and an air conditioner, it's an airbag and all the reinforcement a car needs to meet American safety standards.

Consider this: the Fiat Nuova 500 we all love and are probably buying weighs 1074 kg.  The original Fiat 500 from 1957 weighs 499 kg.  The Ariel Atom V8 weighs 550 kg.  Now, do you really want all that extra stuff?

[Small Car Lover]

As I was typing that sentence about my dream car realized I was describing the Caterham.  Although it might be a bit of a stretch to call the Caterham Roadsport weathertight.  I haven't seen a roof, although I think you may be able to strap a bit of fabric over the roll cage and windscreen.  For some reason I can't quite warm up to the Caterham.  I don't know why.  Perhaps I can't warm up to convertibles, and I perceive the Caterham akin to a vintage British convertible.  I can't defend it, no logic to my perception of this.

The Exige is wonderful,  and very impressive that a 2000lb car meets all fed safety regs.  But way out of my price range at ~$70K.    Unfortunately the slightly more affordable elise gets back to my convertible issue.  Maybe I need therapy...

My hazy understanding of cars like the Atom and the Caterham is they don't have VIN numbers and need to be registered as kit cars to be driven on public roads?  That's how the can avoid all almost fed standards?

[CaliberSRT4]

Small Car Lover wrote

As I was typing that sentence about my dream car realized I was describing the Caterham.  Although it might be a bit of a stretch to call the Caterham Roadsport weathertight.  I haven't seen a roof, although I think you may be able to strap a bit of fabric over the roll cage and windscreen.  For some reason I can't quite warm up to the Caterham.  I don't know why.  Perhaps I can't warm up to convertibles, and I perceive the Caterham akin to a vintage British convertible.  I can't defend it, no logic to my perception of this.

The Exige is wonderful,  and very impressive that a 2000lb car meets all fed safety regs.  But way out of my price range at ~$70K.    Unfortunately the slightly more affordable elise gets back to my convertible issue.  Maybe I need therapy...

My hazy understanding of cars like the Atom and the Caterham is they don't have VIN numbers and need to be registered as kit cars to be driven on public roads?  That's how the can avoid all almost fed standards?

Have you seen this review of the Caterham?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8bhnE2rAWuA

I believe the 500 Abarth Esseesse was faster than the Elise on the Top Gear test track, see the vid from my post at the top of the page.

The Caterham and Atom are road legal in the UK. Not sure about the US though. Probably a kit like you said.

[RacerRon]

Here's my two cents worth. If Fiat/Chrysler can hold the price of the 500 Abarth below $24,000 they will sell all they can make here in the U.S. with 170 hp; and without making customers buy that Esse Esse box of parts like they do in Europe. I don't think U.S. customers would "get it." I have never owned an Abarth car before, so I am waiting for the Abarth 500 to arrive.



As for other small sports cars, I love my '94 Mazda Miata R version and I like the Lotus Elise/Exige, but they are out of my price range. I once owned a Lotus Europa Twin Cam in the 70s and tried to use it as a daily driver, but ended up having to fix it every weekend. I thought about installing a net underneath it to catch all the parts that fell off. After the second stub axle sheared and the water pump started leaking after 30,000 miles, I got rid of it and bought a new X1/9 in '78. Not perfect, but much more reliable and it never left me stranded. If Fiat had done an Abarth version of the X1/9 and added more power, it would have done much better into the 1980s.

I see the Caterham as an expensive weekend toy. A good weather car to have fun in and maybe autocross.

[RacerRon]

I believe the 500 Abarth Esseesse was faster than the Elise on the Top Gear test track, see the vid from my post at the top of the page.

The Abarth EsseEsse was faster around the Top Gear test track, but the Elise 's time was on a wet track. The 190 hp Elise is faster than the 160 hp Abarth, and the Elise is lighter too.

[Mike S]

I'm sorry but 0 - 62 in 7.4 seconds does not make it very quick. I've said before that my stock Volvo wagon was faster 0-60 6.2 seconds and after reprogramming the ecu 5.6 seconds.

I want a 500 that is faster than what they offer. I'm sure the stock 500 sport will be fun to drive anyway. I think if it has Abarth script it should mean something and not be a decoration.

[CaliberSRT4]

RacerRon wrote

I believe the 500 Abarth Esseesse was faster than the Elise on the Top Gear test track, see the vid from my post at the top of the page.

The Abarth EsseEsse was faster around the Top Gear test track, but the Elise 's time was on a wet track. The 190 hp Elise is faster than the 160 hp Abarth, and the Elise is lighter too.

It was? Usually TG denotes wet times. Maybe the track was only a bit damp?

[Fidgell]

Sadly Ive been told the Focus is probably late and slated for early 2013 so the race is on and Fiat may actually get there first.... I agree the Abarth is not as quick as you would expect but believe me after driving an Esseesse in the UK last week, its not slow by any standards and to put it into the 6secs catagory would make it IMHO unuseable. It doesnt claim to be the worlds fastest but it was one of the most fun - and plenty enough power for the chasis.

I only wish I could get the ST outta my head now....

[Small Car Lover]

I have wondered about that 7.4 sec number myself.  It does not quite add up.  My '95 GS-R weighs 2650lbs, has 170hp, 128ft-lbs and has a published 0-60 time of 7.2sec.  I would expect the european Abarth SS to be quicker than the GS-R, having more torque, 160hp and quite a bit less weight.

In any case I have a hope for the US Abarth.  If we get the 170hp Multiair turbo as promised, I believe this is the same motor used in the Alfa Mito Quadrifoglio.  Doing a little research o that motor, there is a Novitec ECU reprogramming chip available in europe to raise HP to 195.

Obviously the Novitec chip wont work in the US car, but I hoping a US tuner like Jet will develop something similar.  A 195hp Abarth would be quite quick, comparable to a MS3 in terms of power to weight.  The MS3 weighs 3270lbs with 263hp = 12.4lbs/hp

I would expect the US Abarth come in somewhat heavier than the US 500 Sport, so Ill guess around 2450lbs.  At 195hp this would yield about 12.5 lbs/hp.  

Having driven the MS3, there is no lack of power.  Even with the significant boost limiting in 1st and 2nd, C&D has the 0-60 at 5.8.  Makes me think a 170hp Abarth could be mid 6's and a 195hp chipped one could flirt with 6 flat or even a hair under.  Either way, if Fiat keeps the weight of the Abarth under control and delivers the motor they have promised, we should have a fun car on our hands.

[CaliberSRT4]

My car is 3189/285 = 11.2 lbs/hp

As for the Esseesse, EVO magazine tested it at 6.9 seconds 0-60. That sounds correct to me based on the power and weight. Considering they did a real-world test, I have no reason to doubt that figure.

Here's a link to the EVO comparison between the Essseesse and Cooper S:
http://www.evo.co.uk/carreviews/cargrouptests/234172/abarth_500_esseesse_v_mini_cooper_s.html