40+ mpg?

[trinME]

I commented on this on the May 2 blog, but I guess that doesn't get much traffic.
It's been mentioned in several places that one of the bench marks for Fiat receiving an additional 5% ownership in Chrysler is the North American production, by Chrysler, of a car getting 40+ mpg, using Fiat technology. Not clear whether it has to be badged as a Chrysler.
The press release mentioned in the blog says that bench mark will be reached in the 4th quarter of this year. This seems to mean either a new engine for the 500, or a new vehicle, with a new engine. Maybe a 500 with a new engine, re-badged as a Chrysler? Either way, my guess would be the TwinAire engine, not the diesel, as a recent press release said the first appearance of the Multijet diesel will be in a 2013 Jeep Grand Cherokee.
Comments, Chris, or anyone?
-TR

[Giallo Edizione]

I recall I read a recent interview with Marchionne where he said the EV 500 would precede the Abarth, so maybe that's what will be introduced in Q4.

[trinME]

You may be right. I hadn't thought of an ev as meeting the requirement, but maybe so. -TR

[Fiat500USA]

trinME wrote

I commented on this on the May 2 blog, but I guess that doesn't get much traffic.
It's been mentioned in several places that one of the bench marks for Fiat receiving an additional 5% ownership in Chrysler is the North American production, by Chrysler, of a car getting 40+ mpg, using Fiat technology. Not clear whether it has to be badged as a Chrysler.
The press release mentioned in the blog says that bench mark will be reached in the 4th quarter of this year. This seems to mean either a new engine for the 500, or a new vehicle, with a new engine. Maybe a 500 with a new engine, re-badged as a Chrysler? Either way, my guess would be the TwinAire engine, not the diesel, as a recent press release said the first appearance of the Multijet diesel will be in a 2013 Jeep Grand Cherokee.
Comments, Chris, or anyone?
-TR

Hi TR, I meant to comment on your earlier post.

It is a new vehicle that is coming out.  I'm seeing some folks in about a week and hopefully will find out more info... Although, I may have to give up a kidney to find out. LOL

Closest I heard was a B segment vehicle (this was back in 2009) badged as a Chrysler. That may have changed.

[trinME]

Wow, they've kept this under wrap pretty well, if they're going into production this year. Thanks Chris.

But this begs the question, what engine? If it's going in a larger car, seams like it would have to be a larger version of the TwinAire, to get adequate performance. It seams unlikely a larger version of the Multiaire, in a heavier car, could get better mpg than it does in the 500.
-TR

[Fiat500USA]

trinME wrote

Wow, they've kept this under wrap pretty well, if they're going into production this year. Thanks Chris.

But this begs the question, what engine? If it's going in a larger car, seams like it would have to be a larger version of the TwinAire, to get adequate performance. It seams unlikely a larger version of the Multiaire, in a heavier car, could get better mpg than it does in the 500.
-TR

That is a great question. One thing is that the 40mpg is measured under the older EPA ratings, so it should be easier to achieve.

The original language in the 2009 Agreement seemed to indicate that the car would just have to use a Fiat platform (E-Evo?), however, there was a revision (or clarification) that inserts 40mpg into the mix.

[Giallo Edizione]

Fiat500USA wrote

That is a great question. One thing is that the 40mpg is measured under the older EPA ratings, so it should be easier to achieve.

The original language in the 2009 Agreement seemed to indicate that the car would just have to use a Fiat platform (E-Evo?), however, there was a revision (or clarification) that inserts 40mpg into the mix.

If they were to use the older EPA rating system, I think the US spec 500 would already qualify.

[trinME]

You took the words out of my mouth, Giallo.
Does the requirement say it has to be badged as a Chrysler?
-TR

[BrankoBox]

I think that “40 MPG combined unadjusted” car is new Dodge Neon, based on a Alfa Romeo Giulietta platform. It'll have less powerful version (from Fiat Bravo) of 1.4 multiair turbo engine - 140 hp and 170 lb-ft. This “40 MPG combined unadjusted” is pre-2008 epa methodology, but I believe that it'll reach same or slightly better "new" epa result than Hyundai Elantra.

Fiat 500 (USA) 1.4 MA - 30/38 USA cycle
Fiat 500 (EU) 1.4 - 29/45 EU cycle
Fiat Bravo 1.4 T MA - 32/49 EU cycle
Alfa Giulietta 1.4 T MA - 30/50 EU cycle - 168 hp and 180 lb-ft.

With Alfa double clutch TCT transmission mpg is a bit better, so I hope that they won't put some kind of mpg killer auto transmission like in Fiat 500.

All in all, we should expect around 30/40 from EPA.

[trinME]

Thanks Branko. A 1.4 multiair with turbo makes sense.
But have those EU numbers been corrected for Imperial vs. US gallons? That confusion lead to some disappointment when the US 500 numbers were released.
-TR

[ciddyguy]

trinME wrote

I commented on this on the May 2 blog, but I guess that doesn't get much traffic.
It's been mentioned in several places that one of the bench marks for Fiat receiving an additional 5% ownership in Chrysler is the North American production, by Chrysler, of a car getting 40+ mpg, using Fiat technology. Not clear whether it has to be badged as a Chrysler.
The press release mentioned in the blog says that bench mark will be reached in the 4th quarter of this year. This seems to mean either a new engine for the 500, or a new vehicle, with a new engine. Maybe a 500 with a new engine, re-badged as a Chrysler? Either way, my guess would be the TwinAire engine, not the diesel, as a recent press release said the first appearance of the Multijet diesel will be in a 2013 Jeep Grand Cherokee.
Comments, Chris, or anyone?
-TR

Hmmm... Speculations abound, I WAS going to say, perhaps the Panda as I've heard rumors it may come stateside, but badged as a Jeep instead, but it's still technically an A segment car, albeit in a more boxy, though attractive and useful design and with 4 doors for ease of rear seat egress.

I also speculated the TwinAir, but the 105HP variant of it, which should still give one more MPG than the 1.4L MultiAir, which is quite good in and of itself in that regard.

But Chris said, "B" segment so that means a model that's slightly larger than the 500 so perhaps the Mito as Alfa is slated to come stateside by next year anyway and it comes with the 1.4L version of the motor we have, but perhaps with a mild turbo boosting.

The Abarth, well, don't know what it'll actually get, but we are talking perhaps even more than 140HP with that so it has to be something else and the Mito may well be it but who knows though.

[Fiat500USA]

ciddyguy wrote

trinME wrote

I commented on this on the May 2 blog, but I guess that doesn't get much traffic.
It's been mentioned in several places that one of the bench marks for Fiat receiving an additional 5% ownership in Chrysler is the North American production, by Chrysler, of a car getting 40+ mpg, using Fiat technology. Not clear whether it has to be badged as a Chrysler.
The press release mentioned in the blog says that bench mark will be reached in the 4th quarter of this year. This seems to mean either a new engine for the 500, or a new vehicle, with a new engine. Maybe a 500 with a new engine, re-badged as a Chrysler? Either way, my guess would be the TwinAire engine, not the diesel, as a recent press release said the first appearance of the Multijet diesel will be in a 2013 Jeep Grand Cherokee.
Comments, Chris, or anyone?
-TR

Hmmm... Speculations abound, I WAS going to say, perhaps the Panda as I've heard rumors it may come stateside, but badged as a Jeep instead, but it's still technically an A segment car, albeit in a more boxy, though attractive and useful design and with 4 doors for ease of rear seat egress.

I also speculated the TwinAir, but the 105HP variant of it, which should still give one more MPG than the 1.4L MultiAir, which is quite good in and of itself in that regard.

But Chris said, "B" segment so that means a model that's slightly larger than the 500 so perhaps the Mito as Alfa is slated to come stateside by next year anyway and it comes with the 1.4L version of the motor we have, but perhaps with a mild turbo boosting.

The Abarth, well, don't know what it'll actually get, but we are talking perhaps even more than 140HP with that so it has to be something else and the Mito may well be it but who knows though.

In the plans, it said C segment, but that 40mpg is very curious,  I can't imagine the 1.4L getting 40mpg in a C segment car.

To add to the mystery are B segment cars that are shown/talked about. These are slated for 2013, but that was in 2009. It would be easier to get 40mpg out of the B segment, so these may have been moved up.

Fullsize images here:
Dodge

Chrysler

[ciddyguy]

Fiat500USA wrote

ciddyguy wrote

trinME wrote

I commented on this on the May 2 blog, but I guess that doesn't get much traffic.
It's been mentioned in several places that one of the bench marks for Fiat receiving an additional 5% ownership in Chrysler is the North American production, by Chrysler, of a car getting 40+ mpg, using Fiat technology. Not clear whether it has to be badged as a Chrysler.
The press release mentioned in the blog says that bench mark will be reached in the 4th quarter of this year. This seems to mean either a new engine for the 500, or a new vehicle, with a new engine. Maybe a 500 with a new engine, re-badged as a Chrysler? Either way, my guess would be the TwinAire engine, not the diesel, as a recent press release said the first appearance of the Multijet diesel will be in a 2013 Jeep Grand Cherokee.
Comments, Chris, or anyone?
-TR

Hmmm... Speculations abound, I WAS going to say, perhaps the Panda as I've heard rumors it may come stateside, but badged as a Jeep instead, but it's still technically an A segment car, albeit in a more boxy, though attractive and useful design and with 4 doors for ease of rear seat egress.

I also speculated the TwinAir, but the 105HP variant of it, which should still give one more MPG than the 1.4L MultiAir, which is quite good in and of itself in that regard.

But Chris said, "B" segment so that means a model that's slightly larger than the 500 so perhaps the Mito as Alfa is slated to come stateside by next year anyway and it comes with the 1.4L version of the motor we have, but perhaps with a mild turbo boosting.

The Abarth, well, don't know what it'll actually get, but we are talking perhaps even more than 140HP with that so it has to be something else and the Mito may well be it but who knows though.

In the plans, it said C segment, but that 40mpg is very curious,  I can't imagine the 1.4L getting 40mpg in a C segment car.

To add to the mystery are B segment cars that are shown/talked about. These are slated for 2013, but that was in 2009. It would be easier to get 40mpg out of the B segment, so these may have been moved up.

Fullsize images here:
Dodge

Chrysler

Still in all Chris, with 40MPG being the criteria NOW, who knows what they have in store, things CAN change quite a bit in over 2 years time.

But you make some valid observations and a "C" segment car making 40PG is tougher than either an A or B segment car will ever be, unless a hybrid of some sort, but that's not what's stated and I think it means as a GAS only vehicle and not a hybrid.

Only time will tell!

[Fiat500USA]

BrankoBox wrote

I think that “40 MPG combined unadjusted” car is new Dodge Neon, based on a Alfa Romeo Giulietta platform. It'll have less powerful version (from Fiat Bravo) of 1.4 multiair turbo engine - 140 hp and 170 lb-ft. This “40 MPG combined unadjusted” is pre-2008 epa methodology, but I believe that it'll reach same or slightly better "new" epa result than Hyundai Elantra.

Fiat 500 (USA) 1.4 MA - 30/38 USA cycle
Fiat 500 (EU) 1.4 - 29/45 EU cycle
Fiat Bravo 1.4 T MA - 32/49 EU cycle
Alfa Giulietta 1.4 T MA - 30/50 EU cycle - 168 hp and 180 lb-ft.

With Alfa double clutch TCT transmission mpg is a bit better, so I hope that they won't put some kind of mpg killer auto transmission like in Fiat 500.

All in all, we should expect around 30/40 from EPA.

Hi BrankoBox, welcome to the forum!

These mpg figures are really the missing link. The 30/50 for the Giulietta looks outstanding and your 30/40 for the US sounds plausible. If the US MultiAir Turbo gets this kind of mileage, looks like the mystery is solved.  Good Job!

[Fiat500USA]

ciddyguy wrote

Still in all Chris, with 40MPG being the criteria NOW, who knows what they have in store, things CAN change quite a bit in over 2 years time.

But you make some valid observations and a "C" segment car making 40PG is tougher than either an A or B segment car will ever be, unless a hybrid of some sort, but that's not what's stated and I think it means as a GAS only vehicle and not a hybrid.

Only time will tell!

Ciddyguy, looks like BrankoBox supplied the missing mpg into the equation, so we'll see how it plays out. This is getting interesting!

[Giallo Edizione]

From Motor Trend April 29:

Fiat is expected to obtain another 5 percent of Chrysler soon to bring its interest to 51 percent, provided it introduces a 40-mpg (highway) EPA-rated car built in the U.S. wearing a Chrysler brand badge before the end of 2011. With Fiat and Chrysler pulling the plug on electric car development, the 40-mpg car is likely to be a 1.4-liter Multijet-powered Dodge Caliber. The Caliber is scheduled for replacement in model year 2013, so the Multijet version could be a 2012 model only, with the powertrain carried on to its replacement.

So: a) it's 40MPG _highway_
      b) it's Chrysler branded
      c) it's not EV ( first I heard this was off the table)

Will be interesting to see how they squeeze another 2mpg _highway_out of the 1.4L MJ in what is today a bigger car than 500. Can't use tricks like auto off, CVT, turbo-boost etc. for the highway end of the scale.  Super tall high gear? 4-2 cyl MDS?  Skinny eco-firendly tires? Bribe the EPA? Maybe the new Caliber body will be introduced earlier and is lower profile and has a better C of D than 500.

[trinME]

Well, that's interesting, and confusing.

Remember that the Multijet is the diesel, so that explains how they could get better mpg than with the Multiaire.

But that contradicts the recent press release, which said the first US appearance of the Multijet technology would be in the 2013 Jeep Grand Cherokee.

-TR

----- Original Message -----

From: [hidden email]

To: [hidden email]

Sent: Friday, May 06, 2011 11:24 AM

Subject: Re: 40+ mpg?

From Motor Trend April 29:

Fiat is expected to obtain another 5 percent of Chrysler soon to bring its interest to 51 percent, provided it introduces a 40-mpg (highway) EPA-rated car built in the U.S. wearing a Chrysler brand badge before the end of 2011. With Fiat and Chrysler pulling the plug on electric car development, the 40-mpg car is likely to be a 1.4-liter Multijet-powered Dodge Caliber. The Caliber is scheduled for replacement in model year 2013, so the Multijet version could be a 2012 model only, with the powertrain carried on to its replacement.

So: a) it's 40MPG _highway_
      b) it's Chrysler branded
      c) it's not EV ( first I heard this was off the table)

Will be interesting to see how they squeeze another 2mpg _highway_out of the 1.4L MJ in what is today a bigger car than 500. Can't use tricks like auto off, CVT, turbo-boost etc. for the highway end of the scale.  Super tall high gear? 4-2 cyl MDS?  Skinny eco-firendly tires? Bribe the EPA? Maybe the new Caliber body will be introduced earlier and is lower profile and has a better C of D than 500.

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[Giallo Edizione]

Good point. Maybe it will be the diesel after all. That would definitely make sense having abandoned electric technology.

[trinME]

They're certainly keeping us guessing.
I'll be disappointed if they really have abandoned the EV, I might have considered that option. Any other source for that information?
-TR

[BrankoBox]

It won't be diesel, that's for sure. 1.4 is Multiair, multijets are 1.3, 1.6 and 2.0.
New car will have sleeker body and lower height than 500, so it'll get lower aerodynamic drag.

Fiat 500 does 70 mph at 2900 rpm
Alfa Giulietta with manual does 70 mph at 2700 rpm
Alfa Giulietta with TCT does 70 mph at 2400 rpm. TCT (like vw dsg) - dual clutch automated manual with tall gearing.
I guess that lower drag and lower rpm on highway will yield couple of extra mpgs.

We know that they'll put TCT in Chrysler 200, so it'll be shame not to put it in "new C car" and improve mpg.