40+ mpg?

[BrankoBox]

One more thing, 2 mpg at 40 mpg is a lot lower than 2 mpg at 30 mpg, so it won't be hard to squeeze a couple more mpg to get 40.

MPG ratings are not intuitive as gallons per 100 miles. Almost everyone will tell you that one will save more by going to 75 mpg car from 40 mpg, than one going from 12 to 14 mpg vehicle. But it's not true.

[trinME]

Yep, I'm definitely confused.

For one thing, I wish that Fiat had come up with better names for their technologies than Twinair, Multiair and Multijet. They sound too much alike, and don't suggest the fundamental differences between them.

I suspect some writers may have gotten them confused as well.

-TR

----- Original Message -----

From: [hidden email]

To: [hidden email]

Sent: Friday, May 06, 2011 2:01 PM

Subject: Re: 40+ mpg?

It won't be diesel, that's for sure. 1.4 is Multiair, multijets are 1.3, 1.6 and 2.0.
New car will have sleeker body and lower height than 500, so it'll get lower aerodynamic drag.

Fiat 500 does 70 mph at 2900 rpm
Alfa Giulietta with manual does 70 mph at 2700 rpm
Alfa Giulietta with TCT does 70 mph at 2400 rpm. TCT (like vw dsg) - dual clutch automated manual with tall gearing.
I guess that lower drag and lower rpm on highway will yield couple of extra mpgs.

We know that they'll put TCT in Chrysler 200, so it'll be shame not to put it in "new C car" and improve mpg.

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[ciddyguy]

trinME wrote

Yep, I'm definitely confused.
For one thing, I wish that Fiat had come up with better names for their technologies than Twinair, Multiair and Multijet. They sound too much alike, and don't suggest the fundamental differences between them.
I suspect some writers may have gotten them confused as well.
-TR
  ----- Original Message -----
  From: BrankoBox [via Fiat 500 USA Forum]
  To: trinME
  Sent: Friday, May 06, 2011 2:01 PM
  Subject: Re: 40+ mpg?


  It won't be diesel, that's for sure. 1.4 is Multiair, multijets are 1.3, 1.6 and 2.0.
  New car will have sleeker body and lower height than 500, so it'll get lower aerodynamic drag.

  Fiat 500 does 70 mph at 2900 rpm
  Alfa Giulietta with manual does 70 mph at 2700 rpm
  Alfa Giulietta with TCT does 70 mph at 2400 rpm. TCT (like vw dsg) - dual clutch automated manual with tall gearing.
  I guess that lower drag and lower rpm on highway will yield couple of extra mpgs.

  We know that they'll put TCT in Chrysler 200, so it'll be shame not to put it in "new C car" and improve mpg.



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Having read what brankobox has said, I think he may WELL be onto something there and as for the XXXjet/air nomenclature, I generally don't get them mixed up, it's when I don't pay close attention and let my mind mis-parse the text I might get them mixed up temporarily. When I read TwinAir, I know it's the new 2 pot motor, MultiAir is the variable valve variant of the gas motors and MultiJet for the diesels.

In essence, either a tweaked MultiAir motor of say, 1.4L displacement in perhaps turbo form OR a diesel, but he says it may well not be the diesel, but who knows though with the larger sized MultiJet II diesel being fitted to the new Jeep Grand Cherokee.

[trinME]

I found the Motortrend article referred to above by Giallo, here:
http://motortrend.automotive.com/159938/1104-fiat-keeps-gobbling-up-chrysler/index.html
The quote was accurate, it definitely says 1.4 Multijet in a Dodge Caliber.
I can think of at least 2 possibilities:
1) The writer was confused, he should have said "Multiair".
2) The writer was correct, but so is Branko. There will be a Caliber with Multijet, and there will be a new vehicle with Multiair and better aerodynamics, that gets 40+ mpg.

I guess we'll have to wait for Chris to shed more light on this mystery.
-TR

[Fiat500USA]

Doing some research on the 1.4L MultiAir turbo in the Alfa Giulietta shows it to get GREAT gas mileage, just as BrankoBox posted. I think that is the key, plus it will get the TCT trans, which will definitely help.

[trinME]

Hi Chris- Do you have any comments on the above Motortrend article?
        Has Fiat "pulled the plug" on the 500 EV ?
        Will there be a new engine option this year for the Caliber, "1.4 Multijet", or other?

Maybe you can ask those folks you'll be seeing this week. I'm sure the forum can come up with a spare kidney to help. :>)

-TR

[Fiat500USA]

trinME wrote

Hi Chris- Do you have any comments on the above Motortrend article?
        Has Fiat "pulled the plug" on the 500 EV ?
        Will there be a new engine option this year for the Caliber, "1.4 Multijet", or other?

Maybe you can ask those folks you'll be seeing this week. I'm sure the forum can come up with a spare kidney to help. :>)

-TR

Chrysler has access to all Fiat technologies including MultiJet II.  Diesel engined Chryslers are the best kept secret, so no news on them. We also know that MultiAir will be added to the 2.4L engines, but again, no news on the fuel economy of that engine, either.

Right now, other than the product plans I posted, there is only a lot of speculation on what's in store. Even the product plans are subject to change.  Having said that, I'll add my 2 cents: I really think the MultiAir Turbo/TCT combo will be the in the 40mpg car and that will be a new body.

I also think the 500 EV is still go... again, my guess.  

I may take you up on that kidney offer!  I'll see some folks next week.

[navy48]

LOL....while I LOVE charts, graphs and statistics, I don't believe a word of it until I see the product.  what really irked me is that when Chrysler/Fiat went before Congress to ask for a bailout, they showed up with all of these "EV" vehicles:  a Jeep Wrangler Unlimited EV, a Chrysler T&C Minivan EV and a Dodge EV concept 'sports car'.  ALL of these were awesome vehicles and Chrysler was given the "loan" based on what Congress saw and was told.  so, where are these "EV" vehicles?  in a scrap heap somewhere, along with the plans to produce them. :(

so when Chrysler says they'll have a car that gets 40mpgs in the next year or so.......I'll believe it when I see it....or better yet, DRIVE IT.

btw....I LOVE CHRYSLER.  just VERY disappointed in their actions.

[Fiat500USA]

navy48 wrote

LOL....while I LOVE charts, graphs and statistics, I don't believe a word of it until I see the product.  what really irked me is that when Chrysler/Fiat went before Congress to ask for a bailout, they showed up with all of these "EV" vehicles:  a Jeep Wrangler Unlimited EV, a Chrysler T&C Minivan EV and a Dodge EV concept 'sports car'.  ALL of these were awesome vehicles and Chrysler was given the "loan" based on what Congress saw and was told.  so, where are these "EV" vehicles?  in a scrap heap somewhere, along with the plans to produce them. :(

so when Chrysler says they'll have a car that gets 40mpgs in the next year or so.......I'll believe it when I see it....or better yet, DRIVE IT.

btw....I LOVE CHRYSLER.  just VERY disappointed in their actions.

From what I understand, they are still doing work on this, so I don't know what Motortrend is referring to. Chrysler has also completed an application for a Government grant on EVs. What Chrysler did is sell off GEM. Here's what they say:

" Chrysler Group is continuously evaluating strategic requirements in the rapidly changing regulatory environment for alternative propulsion vehicles. GEM has contributed significantly to Chrysler's ongoing Zero Emissions Vehicle (ZEV) compliance activities in California and the other Mandate States. Chrysler will pursue a range of other ZEV options moving forward, focusing on full-function EVs. "

[trinME]

Thanks Chris.
Still trying to catch up here. What is/was GEM, and who was it sold to?
-TR

[Fiat500USA]

trinME wrote

Thanks Chris.
Still trying to catch up here. What is/was GEM, and who was it sold to?
-TR

Hi trinMe,

Here's some info on GEM:

Chrysler Group Global Electric Motorcars LLC (GEM), is a wholly owned subsidiary of Chrysler Group LLC, and produces the GEM vehicle line of battery-electric vehicles. The GEM line is the market leader in the low-speed vehicle industry and more than 45,000 vehicles are on the road worldwide.  GEM has been in business since 1998.

On April 26,  Chrysler announced the sale of substantially all of the assets of GEM and NEV to Polaris Industries, Inc. Chrysler Group explained the sale saying:  (they) " decided to focus its energies on its core automotive business".

[trinME]

Ah, the mist is dissipating.

Seems likely that is what the Motortrend article was referring to. And there's hope for the 500EV.

-TR

----- Original Message -----

From: [hidden email]

To: [hidden email]

Sent: Thursday, May 12, 2011 9:47 AM

Subject: Re: 40+ mpg?

trinME wrote:

Thanks Chris.
Still trying to catch up here. What is/was GEM, and who was it sold to?
-TR

Hi trinMe,

Here's some info on GEM:

Chrysler Group Global Electric Motorcars LLC (GEM), is a wholly owned subsidiary of Chrysler Group LLC, and produces the GEM vehicle line of battery-electric vehicles. The GEM line is the market leader in the low-speed vehicle industry and more than 45,000 vehicles are on the road worldwide.  GEM has been in business since 1998.

On April 26,  Chrysler announced the sale of substantially all of the assets of GEM and NEV to Polaris Industries, Inc. Chrysler Group explained the sale saying:  (they) " decided to focus its energies on its core automotive business".

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[sketch]

It will not be a diesel.  America is still very diesel-averse.  The CRD offered in the Liberty did not sell well, and it's in a truck.  Diesel may do somewhat better in the Grand Cherokee, but I don't expect it to be a huge success.

navy48 wrote

LOL....while I LOVE charts, graphs and statistics, I don't believe a word of it until I see the product.  what really irked me is that when Chrysler/Fiat went before Congress to ask for a bailout, they showed up with all of these "EV" vehicles:  a Jeep Wrangler Unlimited EV, a Chrysler T&C Minivan EV and a Dodge EV concept 'sports car'.  ALL of these were awesome vehicles and Chrysler was given the "loan" based on what Congress saw and was told.  so, where are these "EV" vehicles?  in a scrap heap somewhere, along with the plans to produce them. :(

so when Chrysler says they'll have a car that gets 40mpgs in the next year or so.......I'll believe it when I see it....or better yet, DRIVE IT.

1) Those EV concepts were just that: concepts.  They were never destined for production.
2) The 40 mpg compact with FIAT technology is a federal requirement of Chrysler which will allow FIAT to increase ownership by another 5%.  The question is not if, but when, it will happen.
3) Remember that the Hyundai Elantra you can buy right now makes 40mpg highway EPA without MultiAir, direct injection, forced induction...

[ciddyguy]

sketch wrote

It will not be a diesel.  America is still very diesel-averse.  The CRD offered in the Liberty did not sell well, and it's in a truck.  Diesel may do somewhat better in the Grand Cherokee, but I don't expect it to be a huge success.

navy48 wrote

LOL....while I LOVE charts, graphs and statistics, I don't believe a word of it until I see the product.  what really irked me is that when Chrysler/Fiat went before Congress to ask for a bailout, they showed up with all of these "EV" vehicles:  a Jeep Wrangler Unlimited EV, a Chrysler T&C Minivan EV and a Dodge EV concept 'sports car'.  ALL of these were awesome vehicles and Chrysler was given the "loan" based on what Congress saw and was told.  so, where are these "EV" vehicles?  in a scrap heap somewhere, along with the plans to produce them. :(

so when Chrysler says they'll have a car that gets 40mpgs in the next year or so.......I'll believe it when I see it....or better yet, DRIVE IT.

1) Those EV concepts were just that: concepts.  They were never destined for production.
2) The 40 mpg compact with FIAT technology is a federal requirement of Chrysler which will allow FIAT to increase ownership by another 5%.  The question is not if, but when, it will happen.
3) Remember that the Hyundai Elantra you can buy right now makes 40mpg highway EPA without MultiAir, direct injection, forced induction...

3) Remember that the Hyundai Elantra you can buy right now makes 40mpg highway EPA without MultiAir, direct injection, forced induction...

Or so Hyundai claims and we know it's possible, but generally ONLY on smaller sized cars, often with small sized motors and the Elantra isn't small, it's a compact at best as far as smallness goes and has a motor larger than in the Fiat too.

[sketch]

That's the real number—the Elantra is rated 29/40 by the EPA, automatic transmission, standard feature.  It isn't just some unfounded claim: that isn't allowed in advertising anymore.

The car called for in the government's plan for Chrysler is a 40 mpg EPA highway car in the C segment. That's the same segment as the Elantra, Cruze, Focus, Civic, Caliber, and so on.  Cruze, Focus and Civic all have special editions which make 40 on the highway too (Eco, SFE, HX).  The government's requirement is basically "make a car that can compete with Ford, GM, Honda, and Hyundai", which is something they should be doing anyway.

[Fiat500USA]

All I can say is Fiat and Fiat Powertrain can make a car that gets 40mpg just like those others.  No worries about that (and they will be cool to drive while getting the 40mpg).  

[cogtooth]

I would think that many of us already get over 40 mpg highway.  My mixed use this tank what with trying to drive using ecodrive suggestions is 38.6 mpg.  This no fun mode only works when in traffic when you can't go too fast anyway.  Some cars are just made to pass the EPA testing, and other companies don't worry about it, and maybe Fiat did not have time to perfect the EPA requirements.

[Fiat500USA]

cogtooth wrote

...  Some cars are just made to pass the EPA testing, and other companies don't worry about it, and maybe Fiat did not have time to perfect the EPA requirements.

The feeling I get when talking to the engineers is drivability and fun were paramount. They could have tuned the car for maximum fuel economy, but that is not what this car is about.

I think you put your finger on something.  Fuel economy is all some cars have to offer.

[Giallo Edizione]

Fiat500USA wrote

cogtooth wrote

...  Some cars are just made to pass the EPA testing, and other companies don't worry about it, and maybe Fiat did not have time to perfect the EPA requirements.

The feeling I get when talking to the engineers is drivability and fun were paramount. They could have tuned the car for maximum fuel economy, but that is not what this car is about.

I think you put your finger on something.  Fuel economy is all some cars have to offer.

Agree. Midpoint for Elantra is 34.5mpg and for 500 it is 34. Amost nobody drives all highway, most are mixed. For that small difference I will take the FIAT thank you. Yes I know the Elantra is an automatic-its also an Elantra.

[sjmst]

I'm getting 38+ in mixed use. And I'm not babying it.